It seems there is some confusion with the rules for the Pub Battles system. Some people feel the rules are incomplete. I usually find that this is because they are assuming it is more complicated than it is, and that the designer left something out.
This is simply not true. The design goal for Pub Battles was to create a short one page rules set. It was felt that rules were getting way too bloated. The one page rules aren't complete, but the complete set is only eight pages, and that includes diagrams!
The problem this can create for some people is that they are used to rules explaining every little thing. They are used to having every specific question addressed. If you believe something isn't addressed in Pub Battles, it is often clearly explained in general terms, but you can't find it because your looking for a specific rule.
I want to clear up some common concerns with a few remarks, and demonstrate how the rules DO address many of these concerns:
When your command is drawn you can move units even if they have already been contacted by an enemy unit. The chit draw mechanic simulates simultaneous movement, and often times the command moving later is considered to have the advantage. This represents the commander having out thought and out maneuvered the opposition. So while in linear game terms the opponent moved first, in non-linear simulation terms, the friendly commander got the upper hand and the contest resolved in terms favorable to him.
Sometimes you'd rather move first, Alter Turn Order mechanic works both ways.
What happens if I attack an opponent who is uphill, in woods, and across a river? As explained on the Terrain Effects Chart, uphill and woods are -1 not -2. Attacking across a river is treated as being outflanked for the first round only, so for the first round the attacker is at -2 and the defender is at +1, on any subsequent rounds the attacker is at -1.
HQ's are immune to the enemy. As stated in the rules, HQs cannot be attacked, overrun, and do not block movement. The enemy simply ignores them when moving. Move them as little as necessary if they are in the way. It is assumed that the nimble HQ can avoid large formations.
HQ range Hqs can not be in two places at once. Before a unit moves to attack (moves into contact with the an enemy unit) it must be within HQ range. I usually move HQs first so I don't forget, but that isn't required. Most of the time, the HQ can easily be within command range of its entire Corps. For larger Corps or Corps with far ranging cavalry, this can be an issue and must be managed carefully.
Artillery does not need to be within HQ range to bombard. Only units moving into contact with enemy units need to be within HQ range.
Occupying Terrain The Authentic maps look very cool, but there are some features that have no in- game functions other than window dressing. The rules state that a unit is considered to be occupying the terrain that the majority of the piece is in. This means small farmsteads and towns, as well as small bits of woods, have no game function if they cannot contain half a unit block. It is good gamesmanship to announce whether or not your unit is occupying a terrain feature if it seems questionable. Remember that if you are occupying a town or city, your unit must become spent!
Artillery The way the designer intends artillery range to be calculated is by majority of piece to majority of piece. I just measure from front center to any point on the defender. Use whatever method makes sense to you! The reason for this imprecision is because much of the artillery that is represented by the blocks is a mix of different types and functions. The range specification is a generalization of the whole. Pub Battles is a quick play system that doesn't bog you down in ballistics issues and ammo supply concerns.
The design goal of Pub Battles was to simulate the feel of commanding an army from the period represented. IMHO this it does better than any other game system. On the other hand, if you want a study in the small unit tactics of the period with hundred page rule books and requiring many hours to play, or you thrill to the simulation of supply and logistical concerns, there are other titles that offer that in spades.
However, if you want the authentic feel of commanding an army, while only taking up an hour or so of your time, or even a best-of-three series in an evening, welcome to Pub Battles!
Please reply with any further questions that you might have, and I will do my best to answer them promptly and succinctly.
Hello Mike,
ReplyDeleteVery useful comments about this interesting game.
I wonder why units in towns or building are spent, I could see the rationale but on the other hand a unit inside or with the walls protection should have some advantade while fighting.
Also some people consider that artillery is too powerful and recommend to roll 2 dice for them instead of 3. Have you had any issue with that?
I consider that artillery range should be farther for example the distance of the cavalry stick should be ok.
Finally is it correct that the cavalry units attacking spent infantry have +1 modifier. I read somewhere but I dont find it in the rules.
Thanks,
Jose
Hello Jose,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you found this useful.
Units of the period were at a disadvantage when fighting in towns since they were not organized and trained to fight in small groups in an urban setting. They did receive some protection while in a town since the enemy was equally as baffled while operating in an urban setting. The reduction to spent reflects their reduced ability to withstand adverse events while in broke up from formation. Towns do penalize the attacker with a -1 as well, so it evens out. It is always an interesting decision for me whether to fight in town or just outside.
I have no issue with people modifying rules if that feels more appropriate for them. The basic system is robust enough that it can withstand such tweaks and still remain an excellent system. I personally do not find artillery to effective because it is difficult in many circumstances to get in a position to use it effectively AND the fact that artillery cannot destroy a unit (Bombardment on page 3), limits it quite a bit as is. LOS does not pass through friendly units, so a clear line of fire must exist at the time of bombardment, and then friendly units may move up to press the attack.
Artillery Range
An infantry movement stick is close to a mile, which tends to be a little generous for battlefield conditions with smoke and such. So a cav move stick would be too much IMHO. Again, the system is robust enough to tolerate your personal modifications. Like always, if you play by different rules you lose your ability to criticize the game playability or balance. (grin)
Cav v. Infantry
I had to look this up myself. The rule is that cav gets a +1 vs. spent infantry and suffers a -1 vs. fresh infantry. The rule reflecting whether or not the infantry can form squares. Cavalry tactics varied depending on the period and the theater. That modifier appears in the scenario books for Napoleonic era battles, but not for AWI or ACW period battles as cavalry was used differently, and units no longer formed squares in the American Civil War. Rifled muskets put an end to the need for squares in defense. During the Revolutionary War, cavalry units were smaller and utilized different tactics, i.e. Squares were not used in that theater.
I hope that answers your questions! Let me know if you have any further questions, and feel free to respond as well if you want to discuss this more.
Hello Mike,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the interesting answers. I now see the rationale behind attacking/defending in towns and I see the logic of that is well applied in the game rules. Well!
Artillery Range. If the infantry stick represent 1 mile aprox. then I was wrong with my suggestion, average efective fire could be for a distance of 700-900 meters then it is also well represented. More than one inf. stick would not appropiate for the period.
I have read also your comments on the BGG and since you have being playtesting and playing Pub Battle Games for so many years I wonder what you do think of new battles in another period say for example Franco-Prussian War, battle of Sedan, Mars la Tour, or a battle like Solferino?
Those scenarios could be awesome.
As you also like to create house rules I wonder how one about Army's Morale will work with Pub Battles system. Decrease Morale by losing units could be an interesting feature in these games.
Also although HQs are invulnerable and never eliminated, a rule about having the possibility of wounding or killing Commanders should be fun and realistic (with the Lose of Moral or Command ability it implies).
This could be applied when a HQ is attached to a unit in combat for the aim of absorb one hit in case of need. ( example if enemy rolls two 6s Commander is wounded , if enemy rolls three 6s Commander is killed and eliminated). Wounded Commanders have limitations in sending orders to move-attack. Should be fun.
I was also thinking historians always report in the aftermath of a battle the number of killed, wounded and prisoners taken. However in wargames prisoners are usually never taken into consideration for VPs. That could be maybe applied to units eliminated with a die roll ( with a certain roll number those eliminated units just routed and run away, say 1 to 4 but with another die result, 5-6 they were taken prisoners and count more for VPs)
It could be interesting to see how it could develop in this system.
Hello Jose,
ReplyDeleteCommand Post Games is very interested in other eras. The trick is in getting the right feel. The chit draw system works uniquely well for Corps level black powder era games, but is less ideal for other eras.
I am really keen on playing some thirty years war scenarios, but I find that the system would need extensive mods, whereas different battles within the period (Napoleonic and ACW) are practically template simple to create.
I am very leery of any rules modifications because the over arching guideline for Pub Battles is "How few rules does one actually need?" In other words, if the game works without it, they are loathe to include it. This means that when people come new to the system it seems ripe for fiddling. While I say that people can season to taste, I would caution against it, because you can easily over burden the game and suddenly it is no longer fun.
Also, the intention of the game is to focus on command, which means glossing over a lot of minor tactical details. If you really like those kind of differences there are a raft of titles that have that in spades.
The loss of commanders is really not as big a deal as historical narratives can lead you to think. Not when the whole battle is considered. The army commander is a whole different ball of wax, but Corps commanders on down get replaced.
The most effective way to show differences in army morale is with Corps exhaustion levels. Rather than 1/2 you could change it to 1/3 or 1/4. Command Post Games hasn't seen fit to use even that, so far.
The problem with adding this rule or that is that it dilutes the other rules and leads to a vanilla feeling overall, which is the complete opposite of the intended result! At Gettysburg, each army has one elite unit. Those elite units are very important! If half the units were elite, the whole effect would be diminished. Same with adding rules. Rules are fun and easy to come up with, much less so to play with.
One major contention, for me at least, were the FoE rules. People had issues with the thought that two units could be just a hair short of touching and not be in combat. Sounds reasonable. However, I find in application, that it is very fiddley to use and leads to a lot of unintended gamey consequences. My opinion did not carry, so it is the rule. I support the rule for any external communication, but I personally do not use it. If you are curious, I can explain why I think the game is better without it. Note also, in this case, that my preferred option gets rid of a rule (Field of Engagement), it does not add one.
The primary focus of the rules is command. There are no end to the tactical modifications that can be made, but the only rules I'm really interested in are those that affect the feel of command. A certain amount of minimal rules are necessary to convey the proper tactical feel, but short of those that are absolutely necessary, I don't wish to add anything.
For Waterloo I have some very simple rules for Wellington and Ney that give a unique feel to those two commanders, but I change nothing else. Anything more and the game gets to myopic for me (too much attention paid to the wrong details).
Thanks for your feedback. I couldn't agree more in regards to simplify the rules in order to gain fluidity and fun in game terms. I am curious to know why you personanally dont use FoE.
ReplyDeleteCommand and chain of command is a the most important and probably the most difficult mechanism to represent in a wargame, specially concernnig this period when there was no radio, orders send by messengers could be delayed, misunderstood, never arrived or ignored by the officers, and that is part of the fun.
For the Thirty Years War battles of Breitenfeld or Lützen could be great with the Pub Battles System.
Let me consider your comments in reverse order.
ReplyDeleteI think 30YW could be really cool in a Pub Battles format. It would have to be modified because Gustav Adolph was bringing about a new linear form of fighting vs. Pike and Shot. So your P&K formations would be square and get only 2 dice, or 3 dice but at -1 drm. These sort of things would need to be playtested. Obviously again, it is easy to dream up rules, but what will be fun and yield the right feel. A really detailed rules system rarely yields the right feel, because no upper echelon commander worried about such things. The problem with 30YW is it is a serious niche subject, and so there is a very small number that can be sold compared to a title like Waterloo or Gettysburg.
You are absolutely spot on about command and control! The best way to represent it is with multiple players with limited communication. I did play a game completely remote one time. Two guys in two different locations playing Brandywine. I was sitting in my den with the game. They each had a copy of the map and their starting unit locations. They would text orders for each sub commander to me. I would try to decipher their orders and give them a little feedback in the form of battle reports from various commanders. It was a wild time. I had one player who was sending me a constant stream of orders and it was fun to send him chaotic reports, as some orders didn't make it, and others made no sense. In the end, one of the guys had to bow out so the game ended after about 3 turns. Nevertheless, it was a lot of fun, and I would like to do it again sometime. Short of that, with 2 players ftf, or solitaire, the chit draw system is the best simulation of command issues that I have found. With little to no control over when a command activates, coordinating attacks can become quite a challenge, as with moving troops around. Usually, when you are shifting troops, you need things to happen in a certain order, chit draw creates a lot of traffic jams!
I wrote my FoE response and it exceeded the character limit, so I decided to make that a separate post!
Hi Mike,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote this about your point of view regarding Morale : The most effective way to show differences in army morale is with Corps exhaustion levels. Rather than 1/2 you could change it to 1/3 or 1/4. Command Post Games hasn't seen fit to use even that, so far.
Please explain what you meant with that , it seems an interesting approach to that issue.
Only that they have not yet covered a battle where changing corps exhaustion levels was deemed as necessary. It has never come up in discussion.
ReplyDeleteHello Mike,
ReplyDeleteI have read by chance your artillery variant in the BGG and I found it wonderful. This one:
One hit from Artillery has no effect.
Two or more hits on a fresh unit flip it to spent.
Two or more hits on a spent unit cause it to retreat.
Are you still applying that in most of your games?
I am applying another variant for artillery as well. As per rules artillery may not bombard. However I consider that when an artillery unit received a hit, reflects some guns has been damaged, crew shocked or injured, but not the whole battery is ineffective. My variant spent artillery may still bombard but rolling only 2 dice and hits with 5 & 6 only.
I don't use it anymore, simply because I don't think it makes that big a difference.
ReplyDeleteWhenever I come up with a new rule I always ask myself if it is simpler and if the game works fine without it.
Your rule sounds great, and if you enjoy using it, go for it!
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